Olin Moyles Ghost

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Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

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  24

  Did You Know Any Jehovah's Witnesses That "Did" Drugs?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my teenage daughter suggested to me that certain kids in well connected families were regular pot smokers.

  it was always hush hush because of their connections but evidently it was common knowledge within the "in" crowd.. i knew some adults that were on prescription pills but they had legitimate excuses for being "happy".

  of course, most jws i know of, medicate themselves on booze..

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  I knew JWs who did illegal drugs; and I know JWs who do illegal drugs.
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  22

  The Reason Why the Society Changed the Meaning of "Generation"...again

  by Olin Moyles Ghost in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this has been discussed...and discussed...and discussed some more on this board.

  but i thought i'd go ahead and put down my thoughts on why the wts changed the meaning of "generation" again in 2010, after changing it in 2008. in short, i think the 2008 "new light" caused many jws to doubt that the end is imminent, so the wts tweaked the meaning of "generation" to re-kindle the zeal in the flock.

  a bit more explanation follows below.. for the sake of completeness, here is a list of the society's various meanings of "generation" over the last few decades:.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  This has been discussed...and discussed...and discussed some more on this board. But I thought I'd go ahead and put down my thoughts on why the WTS changed the meaning of "generation" again in 2010, after changing it in 2008. In short, I think the 2008 "new light" caused many JWs to doubt that The End is imminent, so the WTS tweaked the meaning of "generation" to re-kindle the zeal in the flock. A bit more explanation follows below.

  For the sake of completeness, here is a list of the Society's various meanings of "generation" over the last few decades:

  • pre-1995: people who were old enough in 1914 to discern that the Last Days were beginning (the so-called "generation of 1914")
  • 1995: wicked people alive during the Last Days
  • 2008: anointed JWs alive during the Last Days
  • 2010: anointed JWs whose lives overlap with other anointed JWs who were alive during 1914

  I think the 2008 generation change had an unwanted effect. It caused many JWs to think that The End may not come in their lifetime. Shortly after the 2008 "new light" came out, I heard through the grapevine that a long-time elder said that when he read this article, he realized that he was going to die in this system. I doubt he was the only one with this reaction.

  The Society may have been surprised that the 2008 new light elicited such reactions. In a way, I was surprised about the hoopla that surrounded it. As far as I'm concerned, there's no practical difference between the 2008 and 1995 doctrines--in both cases, 1914 is irrelevant and there's no limit to the length of the Last Days. To this day, I'm not sure why the 2008 generation change had this effect--I recall seeing lots of discussion on JWD around that time, and for the life of me, I never understood how the 2008 new light made one iota of difference in the date for The End.

  But, for whatever reason, in 2008 a number of JWs came to the realization that The End wasn't as close as they thought. The Society had to do something about it. So, the theme of the 2009 District Conventions was "Keep on the Watch"--it was an absolute fear-fest. Then, in 2010, the Society decided to tweak the "generation" to add a bit more urgency.

  Based on what I've read on this board, the Society seems to be (as a practical matter) trying to tie in the new generation to the ages of the guys currently on the Governing Body. While this is not as clear as the old "generation of 1914" teaching, it does give JWs a light at the end of the tunnel. Combine that with the current economic problems, oil spill, etc., and you have a recipe for some good old fashioned End Times Hysteria. And that's what the Society does best.

  Thoughts?
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  10

  Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 05-23-10 WT Study (RIGHTEOUS ONES)

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  comments you will not hear at the 05-23-10 wt study (march 15, 2010, pages 19-23)(righteous ones).

  review comments will be in red or headed by comments.

  wt material from today's wt will be in black.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Thanks for the summary. I don't miss sitting through an hour of that nonsense...

  To me, the "wheat and the weeds" parable seems inconsistent with the "light gets brighter" and "faithful and discreet slave" teachings. Copied below is something I put together a couple years ago on this subject. (skip down to section III for the "wheat and weeds" discussion)

  I.Background

  1. The light gets brighter

  As you know, Witnesses explain away our silly old teachings and false prophecies by means of the "light getting brighter" statement from Proverbs 4. Thus, according to the Witnesses, we have a much greater understanding of the Bible now than did the friends in the days of Russell, Rutherford, and Knorr.

  2. The 1,900 year-old Faithful & Discreet Slave

  The Witnesses teach that Christ appointed the FDS in 33 C.E. There has been a FDS on the earth at all times from 33 C.E. until today. On several occasions, the literature has stated that one generation of the "slave" fed the next generation—including during the post-Apostolic period up to Russell's time.

  While the Watchtower has occasionally included articles about various dissident groups during the "dark ages" in Europe (e.g., the Lollards, Waldenses, Levellers), there has been no statement affirming any of these groups as comprising the FDS. Also, there is no evidence that these groups fit into any sort of unbroken chain of faithful slaves providing food to the next generation at the proper time.

  Further, the Society teaches that Russell's group was not an offshoot of any group or organization. Rather, one publication characterizes Russell as reviving the great truths of the Bible. Statements such as this insinuate that Russell simply prayed for guidance and was led by Holy Spirit to reject the popular teachings of Christendom (Trinity, hell, etc.).

  II.The Contradiction

  So, the Society appears to have adopted a contradictory position. First, there has been a FDS on the earth since 33 C.E. Second, C.T. Russell was part of the FDS. Ok, so far so good, right? Here's where it gets dicey for the Watchtower. C.T. Russell's group was not an offshoot of any group or organization—rather, they studied the Bible free of any preconceptions from other religious groups. So, how does this square with the FDS dating back to 33 C.E.? Shouldn't there have been a FDS group on the earth in the 1870s to give Russell the food at the proper time? Why did he have to come up with it himself?

  Also, going back to Proverbs 4, who had a clearer understanding of Bible truths—Russell, or the 1st century Christians? I think it would only require a quick glance through the Studies in the Scriptures and some copies of Zion's Watch Tower to answer that question. So, that begs the question: why didn't the light get brighter between 33 C.E. and 1879? It looks like it got darker, doesn't it?

  III.A Flawed Counter-Argument

  An astute Witness would likely counter this argument by raising the parable of the wheat and the weeds. The Watchtower teaches that during the post-Apostolic period until the "time of the harvest" (which JWs believe parallels the "last days"), it would be difficult to distinguish true from false Christians. But, according to Witness theology, once the harvest period began, the wheat and weeds would be readily distinguishable.

  This counter-argument is like a Monet painting—it looks good from a distance, but when you examine it up close, it's a mess. In particular, this counter-argument is at odds with the concept of a FDS class existing from 33 C.E. down to modern times. In order for the two doctrines to coexist, then at some point members of the FDS had to stop believing certain "true" doctrines and start believing "false" doctrines and still be the FDS . Picture this: it's the 2nd century and the members of the FDS meet and decide to start believing in the Trinity. Would Jesus consider these people to be "faithful" and "discreet"? Do JWs believe that something like this happened? Probably not; but something like that must have happened for the WTS doctrines of "wheat and weeds" and FDS to coexist.
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  57

  Is the GB setting up to dump 1914?

  by karter in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with the "generation change" and them changing it all the time it would make sence to dump it all togeather.. lets face it ,it can be disproved easly.. they dumped 1975 in a heart beat .. this would buy them all the time they wanted as they would just find another date to start the generation from ie: "the u.n year of peace and sercurty'',1986 i belive or whatever else they could think of.. they could sell it to the r&f as easly as they sold 1975,then dumped it when it did'nt happen .. anyone questioning them would be told they are running ahead of jehovah or lacking faith in his earthly org that feeds us food at the proper time .. what do you think?.

  karter..

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  No, they're not going to dump 1914. But what they have done--either accidentally or on purpose--is minimize the importance of 1914 to the rank-and-file JWs.

  Once the "generation" doctrine changed in 1995, the year 1914 ceased to have any real meaning to JWs. Of course, with the new "overlapping generation" foolishness, 1914 is a bit more relevant now. But it's nothing compared to the pre-1995 "generation of 1914" teaching. I remember as a JW in the 1980s and early 1990s being told that there was no way This System could last until 2000. Well, here we are...

  Also, as one poster mentioned, not many JWs are aware of the whole 1918/1919 inspection/appointment doctrine. Ex-JWs make a much bigger deal of it than JWs do. Most JWs simply believe that the WTS is the true church because of what they don't believe in--namely trinity, hell, immortal soul, and going to war; as well as the fact that the WTS leads a "worldwide preaching work." I expect that fewer than half of all JWs have even a rudimentary understanding of the 1918/19 doctrine.

  Some think that when 2014 comes and goes, that this will awaken a significant number of JWs or will at least force the WTS to make further changes to its End Times doctrines. As much as I would love to see the former happen, I'm not optimistic. Most JWs will simply say "wow, we're now 100 years into the Last Days...it's going to happen any day now."

  Of course, as the years and decades pass, 1914 will seem even less relevant to your average JW. But recall that the Seventh Day Adventists still teach that Jesus began his investigative judgment of Christianity in 1844. That was over 160 years ago! And millions of people still believe it. That leads me to believe that 1914 still has legs.

  As P.T. Barnum said, there's a sucker born every minute. And the Watchtower Society is banking on it.
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  18

  question for MadJW

  by isaacaustin in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  come on, be straight...no one is here to jump on you.

  are you a exjw?

  a former student never baptized?

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  At risk of sounding a bit like "Dr. Phil," I have a soft spot in my heart for MadJW, because I see some of myself in him. Not too many years ago, I would have said many of the same things he does.

  If you boil down MadJW's posts to once central point, that point is "yeah, the JWs have some crazy stuff, but they're not as bad as Christendom." That sort of rationalization is what kept me limping along in the WTS for years. Eventually, my brain started working and I realized that my whole reason for staying a JW was based on a logical fallacy, namely a false choice.

  MadJW's reasoning is one logical fallacy after another. But it's not his fault, it's the fault of the WTS. That's how they taught us to "reason." They taught us to change the subject, set up strawman arguments, and set up false choices. Eventually some of us see through the nonsense, and I'm certainly grateful that I finally did.
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  60

  "We're Sooo Deep In This Time Of the End"

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i heard that many in my jw family are seriously crowing those words.. do witnesses have short memories or what??.

  they sound more like false prophets to me.

  they can't keep crying wolf..

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  I came across this political ad in the Alabama governor's race. Watch this 30-second piece and then try to tell me with a straight face that the government of Alabama is going to "turn on religion" anytime soon...

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJG-7s1e5eM
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  508

  Most-Ignored Scriptures by JWs

  by Mad Sweeney in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the watchtower has been known for over 130 years as a great scriptural cherry-picker.

  they pick out disparate unrelated verses and combine them to support the wackiest of wacky doctrines.. on the other hand there are many scriptures they almost never address, whether because they contradict wt doctrine or because they simply don't have a clue what they mean or how to spin them to the wt advantage.. one of these is revelation 19:1 that mentions a "great crowd" "in heaven.

  " the only time it is ever brought up it is dismissed.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  MadJW, I am well aware that the WTS has arguments that these verses don't mean what they say. My point is a simple one, namely that the WTS ignores these verses. And let me take the opportunity to thank you for performing scriptural gymnastics and showing exactly why the WTS clergy / JW laity ignore them.

  Please keep up the good work. You make my points better than I can.

  Best Regards, Olin.
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  31

  Oath of Allegiance -- You will want to read this

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  oath of allegiance.

  a story that needs telling, in pictures: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2010/05/oath-of-allegiance.html .

  marvin shilmer.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Thanks Marvin. I remember your article a couple years back. Barbara Anderson posted it on her watchtowerdocuments.com site.

  I seem to recall that there was a Questions from Readers article that addressed this issue. the article was in the 1970s or early 80s, I think. If I remember correctly, the rationale was that in democratic countries, these "loyalty oaths" incorporated their constitutional free speech/religion protections and thus the JW making such an oath was not agreeing to anything that would violate his neutrality.

  Perhaps someone with WT Library could pull this article. I think it uses the term "loyalty oath" so that may help in finding the article.
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  508

  Most-Ignored Scriptures by JWs

  by Mad Sweeney in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the watchtower has been known for over 130 years as a great scriptural cherry-picker.

  they pick out disparate unrelated verses and combine them to support the wackiest of wacky doctrines.. on the other hand there are many scriptures they almost never address, whether because they contradict wt doctrine or because they simply don't have a clue what they mean or how to spin them to the wt advantage.. one of these is revelation 19:1 that mentions a "great crowd" "in heaven.

  " the only time it is ever brought up it is dismissed.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Thanks for the WTS interpretation, Isaac. I assumed they would have to make something up, since Jesus' plain words directly contradict their theology.

  So, let's review:

  • Jesus says Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be in heaven.
  • The WTS clergy class says they won't.

  Who does Mad JW believe? Jesus, or the WTS clergy class? Inquiring minds want to know!
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  71

  Try again...DC 2010 Discourse 48

  by JWFreak in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.mediafire.com/file/ghnjmmoymjw/dctalk48.pdf.

  just uploaded page 2...not 1 or 3 as they are of no interest.. this talk is only given by gb members or branch committee members.

  enjoy.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Thanks, JWF and ynkot! I'd love to see pages 1 and 3 if that's possible.